Beretta, a maker of handguns and shotguns, has hired an Elvis Presley impersonator for live events. 3 vols. Drue, yes, the absence of rifling means that this pin-fire was used for shot.Pin-fires represent an important stage in the development of firearms. cases. Please - no questions about your old guns. Ateliers Saint Laurent, Bauwir Joseph - Galoppin Forum, http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html. Berleur Michel [Later note: Gerhard Wirnsberger has written. A forum community dedicated to all firearm owners and enthusiasts. Bauduin Charles Made in Belgium, circa 1890, cracked stock with pistrol grip, old refinish to action. After investigation of proofmarks I realised it is a Belgium manufacured gun from Liege. Worldwide Logistics for all your products. This listing allows you to trace back a particular nation's aviation history in reverse-chronological order. You can also browse other antique pistols for sale or additional categories as diverse as Colts, Winchesters, and antique long guns. Due to the "Any maker's name or place of origin? marks tell the country of origin of the weapon. Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks. typically do not have a caliber designation; symbols and codes are used 1893 - 1924 1930 - present CH B RAYE 15 Designates 4th or nitro proof; the mark contains the name of the powder in abbreviated form ( Schultze, E.C.) Hand Guns 24 Rifles-Shotguns 22 . of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most typical pieces of his Post request for quotation and get multiple offers from manufacturers, 155MM HE 107 Full Zone 8 Charge with Electronic Fuze, Large quantity of surplus guns and exotic guns, BA 312 Semi-Auto Magazine Tube Tactical Shotgun, BA 912 Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto (2 Different Mold), BA 912 Special Cerakote Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto Shotgun. have a great day! Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks, Manufacturers #1 A buddy at work inherited a very nice customized Mauser from his dad. The earliest 3D-printed guns were crude single-shot devices. In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. Baron Emile Austrian arms were marked with the double eagle, and later with the letters Wn 78; a variety of private marks of manufacturers are also in use. A voluminous schedule of rules and scales of charge for the proof of various kinds of small arms is in existence, and the proof is the same at London and at Birmingham; though different proof marks are employed. Proof Marks or It is unfortunate from the point of view of history that weapons were not marked with a date letter as is customary with silver hall-marks, but the proof-marks stamped upon arms give no indication of the period of proof. We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. Quick Facts For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. In addition to reference books that display proof marks and their meanings. There's no indication of chamber length--but that didn't begin until 1892.The other marks I can't identify.So what can I tell you? Closset J.M. listed in alphabetical order. He designed iconic guns like the M1911 handgun, the Browning Hi-Power pistol, and the Browning Auto-5 shotgun. No maker's name anywhere? Now, at age 63, Jensen has reached the stage in life where he's ready to start letting go of his collection. Originally evolved by the armourers themselves, the system of proof was in nearly every arms-producing country taken over by the Municipality or the State, who imposed a series of stringent by-laws and penalties on any who sought to evade the prescribed tests. 1860-1870. barrel began as a means to insure its safety and integrity. Charlier Ch. CLIMAS Tradename used by J. Stevens Arms Co. on guns. Hand Guns 17 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . Colleye Henri Joseph Stevans): cant verify it is Maj. Doan, but on his hip is a pistol, which looks alike a 7 in. outlawman7 - The reason for a lack of response here may be found in the post immediately above yours. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! Any ideas as to date range? Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Antique Shotguns (Pre-1899): Belgian Shotguns, Side by Side Shotguns Our inventory of antique shotguns is made up of shotguns manufactured before 1899, including English, French, and Belgian shotguns. I'm not familiar with the proof mark you describe, although a French one exists of AR with a three-pronged crown above, used for smokeless powder proof (but no M). By Alain Daubresse. that we have found on this subject. The famous "hump back" was made in countless configurations and gauges. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Belgian shotguns are still finely-made firearms and are considered some of the best to come out of Europe. Dallas, Donald. Bouquin Ad The major countries which either did not have proof or whose marks were not recognized were the U.S. and Spain. is about 30 cm X 22 cm (11.80" X 8.60"). A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, Brandon, but I've been out of the country w/o internet access. Bernimolin If I was asked for a guess for a dollar I would say mid 1930's. I can't ID the 'RM', who was likely the barrel maker. So I'd guess it was made in the late 1800's. BELGIAN FLOBERT SINGLE SHOT RIFLE: Circa. The third is a plain stamp, with the letters A.V.E. Clement, Charles Pistol and revolver manufacturer in Liege, Belgium, c.1886-1914. Comblain H. J. Bronne Gustave Belgian Arms cie 2 On barrel locking system or chamber if the lumps are part of the barrel after final black powder proof, Preliminary proof for unfinished barrels, and indicated barrels had not been weakened after proof by breeching, Used on muzzle loaders, Bore diameter in millimeters. Collard Henri - Roux Jacques Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2008. Navigation (GPS, altimetres, compasses, maps), Immediate shipping on a all products listed. The Comblain Dieudonn Joseph The mark is applied after the gun has passed the Belgian proof. Sorry! St. Etienne, in France, established its proof house in the reign of Francis I., at the beginning of the sixteenth century. Parisa cipher of E. and P. set back to back (as shown below). The crude VIII on each barrel aren't proof marks but a means to ensure matching tubes for this set of barrels. Four barrel . And I have a photo taken at Winchester, TX with Maj. Thomas Doan during the Dusty March, July 1863, Dechard, TN. manufacturers identifying marks, more commonly referred to as Proof Marks, Arsenal or Inspector Marks Colard Louis - Counet Lonard gfk0W2|Z#C7xA5 2`f)Hj'[iZWMU=|J-T `)Mtex=]m$azBbk>$QPB gTb0nnPTbj\uD`.3;7 ;U}LuB+2aki!Ld1QNUwr$Oaj9,U1Oe~N2u]6;&?a'LOe3 NIIS/\4fFIGXT[,(rN]3"!2(4YBd^VUY:;jWCJ^f"X.2X:l\d>|D}#&Ofw`Rv|$6&)M Testing the gun Boden The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick)indicate provisional proof. The one on the far right is the definite proof for nitro, or smokeless powder. Ordinance and Proof Houses were established by law in almost every Burlet Ancion Jacques & Cie with this information in an attempt to clear up some wrong information Are also discussed the many markings found applied on the guns and their Thanks for any help you can offer.Rick dwonczyk, I found one with elg with a star underneath in a circle but there was also a T with a star above it and the letter S also on the cylinder pin fire solid erase revolver with a collapsible trigger was told it was .31, Hi, Rick. A reader hasasked me to say something aboutBelgian proof marks. Makers - Darne, Merkel, Arrieta, Beretta, Browning, Holland, Purdey, Richards, Bernardelli, Parker, Fox, LC Smith, and most other double barreled shotgun, gun and double rifle makers. for identifying the acceptance and proof marks as it appears, many Military firearms can be difficult to identify because they Is there a stamp of LLH on the tubes forward of the flats? Bettonville - Fontaine Without a photo, I can't add anything to what you already know: it's a handgun made in Belgium. It's complete. Comblain Hubert Joseph I'm still working on a date and it seems like narrowing it down by what years it could'nt be from might be a better strategy. Britte Frres Your help is appreciated. Bazin F.J. It could be almost anything: an English Greener, which would have Birmingham, England, proof marks, or it could be a double of dubious origin. As I've said, I'm not an expert. Most shotguns have smoothbore barret to be able to use shells which are grouped by gauges (instead of rifles caliber) - they indicate the weight of the ammunition fired. I'm very excited and can't wait for some replies. Their cipher or mark was the letters G.P. Ancion DD & Fils ]v8 >ZX 2Fu}) arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. The wood does not look ancient so I am guessing in the 1970s or so. Burrard, Major Sir Gerald. Information, NRA Today's biography is a guest post by our friend Robert White - thanks, Robert! below are samples of Proof Marks of different countries. it says made in belgium on the side of the barrel yes but on the top of the barrell it says acier cokerill on 1 barrel on the top and on the other barrel on the top next to it it just says liege belgium and yes there is a stamp on the inside of the barrel next to all the other markings that says LLH what does that mean? This includes many fine Browning A5 shotguns and the Superposed shotgun. Wish I could be more helpful! Using a shotgun shell (a self-contained cartridge with multiple small, sphere-shaped projectiles) instead of a usual bullet is what makes a shotgun a separate kind of a gun. Beckers G. Bertrand Joseph 2023 Military Pay Chart Military Ranks DoD Dictionary Conversion Calculators Military Alphabet Code Military Map Symbols The "Military Factory" name and MilitaryFactory.com logo are registered U.S. trademarks protected by all applicable domestic and international intellectual property laws. The date stamps is not used on all guns, otherwise that is the most accurate. Or any info? I suspect the gun is a Janssen. On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size (or nominal bore) plus the shell or cartridge case length. time, therefore assisting in dating the arm. Ithaca opened in 1883 and built a number of different boxlock-style side-by-sides, including the Crass . I'll restrict myself therefore tosaying something about gun making in Belgium and offering some proof marks. Closset Louis - Remy Hubert We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. These Ad Categories: Pre-1840. Made in Colton N. Y. probably around the 1860s. Whatever type of shotgun you want to add to your collection, you can be sure to find just what you're looking for here. Purchased by Val Forgett of Navy Arms in 1978. Rich engraved. Collette Lopold Today, Belgian firearms designer Francotte builds famed double barreled shotguns and fine rifles. Judging by the comments that appeared when I Googled "spesco corporation," your guess is on target. Bernard Alphonse Very helpfull once again. Do you have any knowlege of pinfire double barrels? Today, quality 12-gauge field grade guns from all the American makers during this era can be found and purchased for less than $1,000. The mark was seldom requested, Chamber dimensions in millimeters shotguns undergoing smokeless proof. Have had this gun in family for as far as i remember at least 40 years. Entries are listed by initial year of service descending, then grouped by designation (A-to-Z) to better showcase a given country's evolution in the field of infantry arms. Miscellaneous I doubt pictures will help in this case, but I'm happy to look at them: send them to [email protected]. Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. There's no indication of choke--but that didn't begin in Belgium until 1898. I live in Tennessee and would love help on identifying this gun down to the year and place made. Please someone let me know that they know about these Belgian doubles! Carl Russell & Co Gunmakers Ltd, Stable Yard, Hatfield Park, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 5NQ. On January 27, 1910, in Liege, a Justice of Peace heard a case of gunmaker's employee Joseph Bury vs. La Zurich insurance company. Clment Charles Philibert Listing of small arms appearing from 1800 to 1899. Bookmark It is was built using a very thick Some older foreign manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a location, rather than a manufacturer. carefully bound by threads. Midway USA sells a CO2 kit to unload both flint and percussion guns.Best,Gerry, hello, what does a 'z' also indicate on a Begian pinfire revolver cylinder please. Long Beach, CA: Safari Press, 2000. Bernard Victor & Cie late 1880's to early 1890's, .22 caliber rim fire 22 1/2 octagonal barrel, carved walnut stock, iron furniture. You can easily choose the shotgun you need on Ammoterra.com. Designates rifled barrel. I have a Belgian muzzle loader pistol with the cylinder marked "ELG" in a circle with a star underneath it in the circle, there is also a "D" on the cylinder underneath the proof mark. Cap Joseph 254.541.2985 John Hille, [email protected]. this location now so you can return often. Baker, David J. A complete list of suppliers of shotguns. A fine Antique Belgian Double barreled Flintlock sporting gun by Michel Berleur Liege with rainproof pans with safety-covers released by a spring-catch at the front of the steels. The problem is this mark was used from 1818 (muzzle loading period) until 1893, so that hardly narrows down the time frame. Just because a long gun from Belgium is a flintlock, therefore, doesn't necessarily mean that it's "of the period," as antique dealers say. Other makers include Lebeau Courally and Mahillon. It could be of relatively recent manufacture. GWO, good condition. Belgium Belgian Proofmarks Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. Colette Victor Can you add any details? Barrels are not rifled- does this mean it must be a shotgun? I bought an old shotgun from my uncle, he bought it in the late 40s early 50s. The first type of testing we will study is the Proof Test. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. CLEMENT, J. Ever seen that? Its weight for your continued support, encouragement and admonishment. firearms books bibliary. M Mecar (4 P) Pages in category "Firearm manufacturers of Belgium" (most sales were in the 1930s). Greetings Easthampton,I have been researching an old antique pistol that has been in our family for generations.What leads me to your group was the Hits and Misses article posted in 2014; on Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks (my piece has the spelling Belgium). Some were sold in Stoeger catalogs in the early 60s. Very little: I'm assuming it isn't a muzzleloader but a breechloader, which means it could be as early as 1860-1865, say. Behr Jean jacques I would be grateful to any lover of arms who possesses authentic dated weapons, or has catalogued a private collection, if he would send to me, in care of my publishers, any such information which will add to the mass of fact available. As the old saying has it, "The buyer needs a thousand eyes; the seller, only one." Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheux's 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges. I can't find any other mumbers on the gun other than the multiple proof markings that I will post later. Savage continued to build guns under the A.H. Fox name into the 1940s. for exports be able towithstand a proscribed load without damage. Underneath the whole appears the word St. Etienne. Are you sure they are Damascus and not perhaps fake Damascus made by etching a spiral pattern on solid steel barrels for those who liked the look of Damascus? I'm very excited about this gun because I think the serial number is 106. These marks have all the characteristic appearance of a rectangle, with a small blob at the top rather like a tied up sack of corn. Thank y'all again! Credit: @matt_s_schmidt Unfortunately, given that double barrel shotguns were made in numerous countries and then exported to the USA, chances are that not all of them will state the manufacturer and serial number in the same way. Does it reach the touch hole? It means it's a 12 gauge that has been proofed with black powder. or E.C. Colot manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a acknowledge the testing - called "Proof Marks". There is no doubt that this system contributed much to the good report in which properly proved arms were held, and laid the foundation of much export trade. What I know so far is: 1924 is a bit late for Damascus barrels. JavaScript is disabled. Withdraw it and lay it along the barrel, lining up the pencil mark with the muzzle. Other than the diameter stamp, I don't see a 70mm stamp. The British Sporting Gun and Rifle: Pursuit of Perfection 1850-1900. So the barrel strength would be just a bit less than "modern" barrels; but not the corrosion resistance of Winchester Nickel Steel or AISI 4140. The The Liege proof house was established in 1672 and it is the oldest European proof house still in operation. Inspector's marks can not be used to establish date of manufacture; they were re-used over time and the significance of some has been lost. Mark for voluntary treble temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels, Mark for voluntary double temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels. insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of to identify the manufacturer. Sounds like a 19th C. Belgian pinfire shotgun (grin). The slot for the pin had to be welded up and a firing pin installed.I dont know when pin-fire cartridges ceased being manufactured, but Id guess they were still available until the early twentieth century. 14 Designates guns with rifled chokes. Caliber 15mm, length 122cm. %PDF-1.3 The are no available records of these old Belgium shotguns, Because of the action and style the best guess would be an era, between 1920 and 1940. Baltus - Wilmotte It has a gold trigger and serial number starts with an x. I'm very curious as to why there is an "FN" above the serial #. x\}WT_0qk E%Mp8@S36QG7=TFx,P?wU]4v>3}wc)0~_+. Home | Login | Register. production. Choke constriction, together with barrel dimension this can give a brief view of the choke. weapon. I've owned two Belgian side by sides and two Browning Superposed, so I guess I can say that I have some acquaintance withtwentieth centuryones, but unlike my posts on antique English shotguns I don't have an antique Belgian one at hand to describe. Pistol made in Belgium, as you know. the 20th century. Quite old. First Obligatory Proof Load for "Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns", Have a us arms Belgium, looking for info, reciever and barrel are stamped with 1563 has the circle elf star, has the Le peron, barrel ha a 33 stamp and an 18.0 stamp also has something that looks like JIT stamped any comments appreciated , trying to figure out when it was made. Measure your Cogswell and it should be about that.The barrels are 32" and the gun weighs approx 73/4 lbs. The crown R and star P stamped on the barrel, receiver, and cylinder. Hi, your shotgun was made after 1924 due to the Perron-Liege proof marks. These include the location, rather than a manufacturer. Under their charter the Gunmakers Company had powers to prove and mark all manner of hand guns, daggs, and pistols, and every part thereof, whether made in London or in the suburbs, or within ten miles thereof, or brought thither for sale, or imported for foreign parts. Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps, Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction. Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. gunmakers treated in this first volume are : Albini BraendlinAncion & C Hand Guns 8 Rifles-Shotguns 2 . All 24 Shotguns made in Belgium, Belgian made Shotguns from manufacturers.name.include? Besides these national collections, there are many municipal and private galleries whose curators have formed most excellent catalogues, but in the main this knowledge is uncoordinated. Misc. This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. Fakes and fraudulentmakers' marksare not a recent invention--note what William Greener said in 1835 (seemy earlier post of April 20, 2014). It was used by a myriad of hunters for all kinds of wild game. Ray D, STOGERS, advertised them as being made for the AFRICAN tribes to hunt with because with them they would not be able to rebel against the BELGIAN rulers who had modern arms. On this page, once you scroll past the patent stuff, you'll find a gun very much like yours. Thank you Jerry. Subcategories This category has only the following subcategory.